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ICING, and mooney ?'s
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Actually, I believe that fuel system protection is part of the certification for known icing. That is, it is not just the prop, windshield and wing/tail surfaces, but ALSO the fuel tank vents that need protection. Otherwise, in bad icing, the tank vents could ice up vapor locking the fuel to the engine — making those beautiful boots sort of worthless. Full Deice for me… someday, I hope. Of course Mooneys are not certificated for flight in icing conditions! — Jeffry Stetson … Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA Mooney M20E "Superduper 21" Salto H-101 "Shiva – The Cosmic Dancer"
Hi Jeffery. Hope everything is working now Art
Response:
- the trim condition was without the ice.. it had a nose – up condition even when cg was correct an aircraft in cruise – flight.. This could be serious, it could be just out of adjustment. If it is a rental I’d insist on not flying it till you knew if there was a bunch of aft weight that doesn’t belong or if the dang trim wheel is just messed up. Probably the latter, but…. Perhaps you could tell if it is a weight problem by trying to find out how much weight is on the nose wheel. If it is real light, I wouldn’t fly that sucker no mo!
Response:
Actually, I believe that fuel system protection is part of the certification for known icing. That is, it is not just the prop, windshield and wing/tail surfaces, but ALSO the fuel tank vents that need protection. Otherwise, in bad icing, the tank vents could ice up vapor locking the fuel to the engine — making those beautiful boots sort of worthless. Full Deice for me… someday, I hope. Stuart Tomares, M.D. PP-ASEL-IA (KMTN, Baltimore, Maryland)
Response:
Actually, I believe that fuel system protection is part of the certification for known icing. That is, it is not just the prop, windshield and wing/tail surfaces, but ALSO the fuel tank vents that need protection. Otherwise, in bad icing, the tank vents could ice up vapor locking the fuel to the engine — making those beautiful boots sort of worthless. Full Deice for me… someday, I hope.
Of course Mooneys are not certificated for flight in icing conditions! — Jeffry Stetson … Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA Mooney M20E "Superduper 21" Salto H-101 "Shiva – The Cosmic Dancer"
Response:
the trim condition was without the ice.. it had a nose up condition even when cg was correct an aircraft in cruise flight..
In that case, there was something seriously wrong with the airplane. The entire mechanism is a solid mechanical linkage, so unless it has been repaired or removed for some reason, it will not go out of adjustment unless something bad happens. THIS IS VERY BAD BECAUSE THE TRIM MECHANISM IS PART OF WHAT HOLDS THE TAIL ON! IF IT SEPERATES, AN IN-FLIGHT AIRFRAME FAILURE WILL RESULT. Get a Mooney shop to fix it! Two things to check would be the jackscrew mechanism and something called the trim link. The trim link is in a rubber boot under the removable fairing that fits between the fuselage and the tail. The rubber boot is supposed to keep water out, but after 20 years, it doesn’t. It serves only to hide the severe corrosion that can form. This happened on one of my Mooneys. You may as well replace the part anyway if there is any extra ‘play’ in the tail. — Jeffry Stetson … Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA Mooney M20E "Superduper 21" Salto H-101 "Shiva – The Cosmic Dancer"
Response:
or, it may have been that the trim mechanism had frozen.
I had the trim freeze on me in a C172 once, about a month after I got my Private. The day CAVU but cold and I was going to take a visiting friend on a sightseeing flight. It had snowed heavily the night before, and the plane had been sitting outside. I got to the airport, brushed most of the snow off the plane and pushed it into the heated hangar. Then we went into the terminal and sat around drinking coffee and shooting the breeze while the airplane deiced itself. After a couple cups of coffee I went out to the hangar and preflighted. All snow and ice had melted, and I wiped the wings with a soft cloth. I distinctly remember checking the trim. We pushed the plane out and started up. Taxi, runnup, and takeoff from the icy runway were uneventful. This was to be a short cross-country flight from Fort Collins CO (3V5) to Cheyenne WY (CYS). We reached cruising altitude and when I tried to trim for level flight, the trim wheel would not budge. Very strange. At first I was afraid that something in the elevator control had jammed, but gentle experimentation with the primary controls showed that rudder, elevator, and aileron worked fine. Because of the heavy control forces needed to maintain level flight, and my relative uncertainty of what was wrong with the airplane, I let it climb while we figured out what was going on. I quickly found that I could reduce power and maintain level flight, but at very slow (~Vy) speed. I was still very puzzled by what was going on. I was very definitely able to "muscle" the elevator for level flight at higher speed, but was very fatiguing. Since this is something that is not covered in any of the checklists for the plane and we were still close to our home airport it was clear that the best course of action was to turn around and land ASAP. We headed back to 3V5 and flew a normal pattern, paying particular attention to airspeed. Fortunately, the airplane was trimmed reasonably close to it’s normal approach speed. By the time we landed, the sun had begun to melt the ice and snow on the runway. I taxied the plane back to the hangar and got the mechanic. I told him that the trim was stuck, and he got in and said "Hey! it works fine!" Well, you guessed it. Water from the melting snow had flowed someplace near some part of the trim control and stayed there during takeoff but froze when we got to altitude. We never did find out exactly where the water collected, but our best guess was at the trim tab hinge. The moral of the story is to leave enough time for ice to melt AND drain from the airframe. Like most lessons in aviation, this one was a little bit scary when it was happening, but resulted in a very valuable bit of knowledge afterward. Al —
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently had a rather interesting trip in a mooney M20, route ME – NY – VA – NC – GA – OH -KY – NY – ME last week some of the problems I encountered: started picking up ice over PA NY and diverted to the closest airport had about 3/4" Ice, once I was allowed lower the Ice sublimated [snip] I also had a problem with trim I could not get enough nose down trim, at full foward trim I still had to hold it from climbing, but this was not the case once I slowed down from cruise. the cg was ok but as fuel burn went it did get a little worse. I do think I should be able to trim this aircraft for level flight in cruise..!!! If you had 3/4" ice on the wings, you had even more on the tail. The weight alone will pitch you up considerably. (Redo your W&B calculations figuring in 20 lbs of weight on the tail.) (snip) There are some airplanes that are reputed to carry ice well, but the Mooney is definitely not one of them. Had you stalled the plane in the condition you described, it would not have recovered. You were lucky. — Jeffry Stetson … Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA Mooney M20E "Superduper 21" Salto H-101 "Shiva – The Cosmic Dancer"
or, it may have been that the trim mechanism had frozen. in at least some mooneys, instead of a trim tab, the whole tail section moves to adjust trim. if this area had frozen so that the empennage did not have freedom of movement, then that would explain the inability to get ‘enough nose down trim’. in this case, it wouldn’t be as dangerous as the above scenario (the elevator still worked because he was able to hand fly the appropriate correction). still not pleasant, though, and bound to increase the pucker factor. john prickett, cfii
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I heard a old frieght dog talk about … : flexing the wings to break the ice off. DOes this work? What are other : tricks that might be able to save your butt in a jam? I think if the wings are big enough to flex (sailplanes excluded) the plane is probably big enough to have deicing equip. I would not want to pitch the plane around with ice on the wings. We don’t know the stall speed of that "new" airfoil. Perhaps he meant flexing the prop? This is easily done by changing the pitch (rpm) on a constant-speed prop, and is a very useful thing, both for getting it off, and for balancing the prop if it gets out of balance due to ice. And in your older Bonanza (like mine) stay close to that alternate air knob. If it starts running rough, or you feel the cabin heat decrease, pull it out. Land with the flaps up. You don’t want to change the shape of the wing OR increase the download on the tail, which is also an unknown airfoil with an unknown stalling angle of attack. (When there’s ice on the wings, you are a test pilot – you have NEVER flown THIS acft before and need to keep it as far inside the old (known) envelope as possible.) Keep your speed up and land hot. I’ve heard of a v-tail doing a violent stall at 100mph because of ice on the wings, but fortunately the wheels were 3′ above the runway so it was just a bit of a hard landing. And your landing lights will be covered with ice, so if it’s night and you turn them on don’t expect to see much. Keep the gear up as long as possible, but then don’t get distracted when you want them down. Avoid high angles of attack (slow, steep climbs), since you’ll expose more of your wing (bottom) to ice build up. With enough ice, you might need some cowl flaps open since the engine will be working hard but without the cooling (forward speed) that it’s used to. (Yep, a silly time to be thinking about overheating.) Don’t be surprised if radio antennas break off. Monitor nav IDs closely. (GPS can be a good backup if not already the primary nav). dave allen – Fly because you love it.
The way the frieght dog described it he would turn the wheel quickly, torqueing the wings, not flexing upand down. JS
Response:
: I heard a old frieght dog talk about … : flexing the wings to break the ice off. DOes this work? What are other : tricks that might be able to save your butt in a jam? I think if the wings are big enough to flex (sailplanes excluded) the plane is probably big enough to have deicing equip. I would not want to pitch the plane around with ice on the wings. We don’t know the stall speed of that "new" airfoil. Perhaps he meant flexing the prop? This is easily done by changing the pitch (rpm) on a constant-speed prop, and is a very useful thing, both for getting it off, and for balancing the prop if it gets out of balance due to ice. And in your older Bonanza (like mine) stay close to that alternate air knob. If it starts running rough, or you feel the cabin heat decrease, pull it out. Land with the flaps up. You don’t want to change the shape of the wing OR increase the download on the tail, which is also an unknown airfoil with an unknown stalling angle of attack. (When there’s ice on the wings, you are a test pilot – you have NEVER flown THIS acft before and need to keep it as far inside the old (known) envelope as possible.) Keep your speed up and land hot. I’ve heard of a v-tail doing a violent stall at 100mph because of ice on the wings, but fortunately the wheels were 3′ above the runway so it was just a bit of a hard landing. And your landing lights will be covered with ice, so if it’s night and you turn them on don’t expect to see much. Keep the gear up as long as possible, but then don’t get distracted when you want them down. Avoid high angles of attack (slow, steep climbs), since you’ll expose more of your wing (bottom) to ice build up. With enough ice, you might need some cowl flaps open since the engine will be working hard but without the cooling (forward speed) that it’s used to. (Yep, a silly time to be thinking about overheating.) Don’t be surprised if radio antennas break off. Monitor nav IDs closely. (GPS can be a good backup if not already the primary nav). dave allen – Fly because you love it.
Response:
the trim condition was without the ice.. it had a nose up condition even when cg was correct an aircraft in cruise flight..
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I recently had a rather interesting trip in a mooney M20, route ME – NY – VA – NC – GA – OH -KY – NY – ME last week some of the problems I encountered: started picking up ice over PA NY and diverted to the closest airport had about 3/4" Ice, once I was allowed lower the Ice sublimated [snip] I also had a problem with trim I could not get enough nose down trim, at full foward trim I still had to hold it from climbing, but this was not the case once I slowed down from cruise. the cg was ok but as fuel burn went it did get a little worse. I do think I should be able to trim this aircraft for level flight in cruise..!!! If you had 3/4" ice on the wings, you had even more on the tail. The weight alone will pitch you up considerably. (Redo your W&B calculations figuring in 20 lbs of weight on the tail.) In cruise, with a normal CG, the tail is pushed down (negative lift). In addition to the weight, the airfoil was reshaped by the ice and became less efficient. To get the nose trimmed down with severe aft CG, you were requiring the tail to LIFT, which it was not designed to do, and with an airfoil it was not designed to have. There are some airplanes that are reputed to carry ice well, but the Mooney is definitely not one of them. Had you stalled the plane in the condition you described, it would not have recovered. You were lucky. — Jeffry Stetson … Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA Mooney M20E "Superduper 21" Salto H-101 "Shiva – The Cosmic Dancer"
I’ve encountered ice only once thus far (and don’t want to ever again) and decended to lower/warmer which sublimated the ice off. What I would like to know is has any body tried the old silicone(sp) on the wings trick and does it work. I heard a old frieght dog talk about this and flexing the wings to break the ice off. DOes this work? What are other tricks that might be able to save your butt in a jam? And of course NOT flying into icing, or getting out quickly are obviouse. Jason Simpkins
Response:
I recently had a rather interesting trip in a mooney M20, route ME – NY – VA – NC – GA – OH -KY – NY – ME last week some of the problems I encountered: started picking up ice over PA NY and diverted to the closest airport had about 3/4" Ice, once I was allowed lower the Ice sublimated but another problem arose fuel was siphoning out both tanks all the way to landing. kept a lot of altitude and made it to the airport ok. was at MEA for the route and also at the freezing level, wamer below but could not decend because of the MEA and was in the clouds. for the rest of the trip it seemed that the freezing level was not far away and caught a little ice, but I was usually on the edge of the tops or bottoms with room to ask for a diffferent altitude if needed, the fuel problem never reappeared. So, I have a few questions for mooney or other owners: Have you ever had siphoning problems, the mooney has bladder tanks also. Any ideas how it started and if so why did it not stop ? I also had a problem with trim I could not get enough nose down trim, at full foward trim I still had to hold it from climbing, but this was not the case once I slowed down from cruise. the cg was ok but as fuel burn went it did get a little worse. I do think I should be able to trim this aircraft for level flight in cruise..!!! …. all in all weather in the northeast is rather poor for icing conditions, and I feel I was rather lucky to boot, and learned a few things.. …robert beckwith..
Response:
I recently had a rather interesting trip in a mooney M20, route ME – NY – VA – NC – GA – OH -KY – NY – ME last week some of the problems I encountered: started picking up ice over PA NY and diverted to the closest airport had about 3/4" Ice, once I was allowed lower the Ice sublimated
[snip] I also had a problem with trim I could not get enough nose down trim, at full foward trim I still had to hold it from climbing, but this was not the case once I slowed down from cruise. the cg was ok but as fuel burn went it did get a little worse. I do think I should be able to trim this aircraft for level flight in cruise..!!!
If you had 3/4" ice on the wings, you had even more on the tail. The weight alone will pitch you up considerably. (Redo your W&B calculations figuring in 20 lbs of weight on the tail.) In cruise, with a normal CG, the tail is pushed down (negative lift). In addition to the weight, the airfoil was reshaped by the ice and became less efficient. To get the nose trimmed down with severe aft CG, you were requiring the tail to LIFT, which it was not designed to do, and with an airfoil it was not designed to have. There are some airplanes that are reputed to carry ice well, but the Mooney is definitely not one of them. Had you stalled the plane in the condition you described, it would not have recovered. You were lucky. — Jeffry Stetson … Comm ASEL, Pvt SES & Glider, Instrument Airplane EAA, SSA, AOPA, IAC, MAPA Mooney M20E "Superduper 21" Salto H-101 "Shiva – The Cosmic Dancer"